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I
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welcome to a special Westminster edition
of Sputnik orbiting the world with me
George Galloway the reason is obvious
all bets are off all plans scrapped when
Tesa May announced that at
11:15 she was going to make a statement
outside number 10 Downing Street I for
one had no doubt well I had a slight
cintilla of doubt it was either a
general election or it was another war
and these days who knows which of those
two it would be as some wag put it this
morning polling stations are sometimes
used as primary schools the country has
been going back and back and back to the
polls particularly in the north of
Ireland or in Scotland there seems no
end to the number of polls but does more
mean better are we going to get better
governance in Britain now that the fixed
term Parliament act has been scrapped
and we're going to the polls on June the
eth well the first ball has been kicked
all the players and parties are in
action so who better to ruminate about
it all with me than my old friend Steve
Norris Steve is a former conservative
government Minister twice stood for the
Tores to be mayor of London he's a wise
man and a fine one and I'm glad he's
joined me on the Sputnik I've got to be
blunt I believe that this rushed
election has more to do with internal
problems for the conservative party than
it does for the country what would you
say to that I think there's no doubt
about it that um Theresa May thinks that
she's going to get at least two things
out of this election firstly she looks
at Labor's weakness you know there are
many people who say that there was one
single word that summed up her very
considerable change of heart because
until recently as you as you know she's
been saying
absolutely five times we're not going to
have an election suddenly we're going to
have an
election when the labor party is now
according to poll's 24 points behind the
conservatives I think the logic you know
becomes absolutely unassailable and and
you know as kan's John mayard Kan said
when the facts change I changed my
opinions um but there also true that
she's concerned about the extent to
which with her current very slim
majority she could be Boxed In by some
of the ultra rightwing uh levers in her
party that is those who are very very
keen to see a complete break with the
European Union indeed almost a complete
break with Europe an absolute ban on
migration for a number of years which
they see as somehow encouraging our
economy whereas some of us think it
would be disastrous and she will get out
of this what she's looking for out of
this is the kind of majority which a
gives her a mandate of her own something
that she hasn't had until now and B
gives her the room to be able to manage
her own party now when you're faced with
those two opportunities and an
opposition who really does seem to be
incredibly weak right now I think
frankly the logic became unassailable
well we we'll come to the polls and
labor and Corbin uh later I just entered
the caveat that there have been many
polls that have turned out to be
disastrous
wrong I sat over the river in the uh RT
Studios the only man it would appear in
Britain who believed that brexit was
going to win and at one stage the
betting Merchants were saying it was a
90% certainty that we were going to
remain in the EU I sat in this studio as
they started the count in the United
States apparently the only man in
Britain who thought that Donald Trump
was going to win so um of course things
can change especially in a long election
yeah but let me put to you something
that only Channel 4 News has really been
running with it appears that the
prosecuting authorities are poised to
make recommendations which would involve
the prosecution of conservative election
uh Wallas including it said some MPS for
overspending or rather under recording
their spending in the 2015 General ction
opening up the possibility that there
might have been a series of byelections
upon conviction if convicted uh which
would have whittled away that very
narrow majority do you think there's
anything in
that I you and I know and I mean you and
I amongst very few people know just how
ludicrous our rules are about how much
you can spend in elections but for
perhaps for those who aren't familiar
it's worth just saying that individual
uh candidates have very very tight
spending limits which they must not
exceed if you're seen to have exceeded
that very tight spending limit by even a
few pounds you can be in jail uh and
it's happened before and it could have
happened in any of these cases I don't
know the details and I wouldn't want to
neither but nonetheless primer fasy
there was a case to be made But the
irony is that in this comp in this
country the national parties are able to
spend whatever they like there is no
limit whatever on their spend spending
budgets and they spend 20 million 30
million on general elections this is
getting more and more like the United
States in those in those terms and what
we're really we as individuals can spend
only 13,000 as individuals 420 4 40p and
if you spend 50p you're in trouble you
know so I think a lot of this was about
in practice it was about for example the
national party leader or you know big
beast of the of of the particular party
roll into town into a particular
constituency do a lot of campaigning for
the day and then leave and the question
really was does that mean that the local
MP had to account for that money that
cost if you like as part of his or her
budget or was that part of the national
budget and of course the
argument the defense if you like would
have been don't be ridiculous of course
you know because the law is so opaque to
if there if there aren't any cases they
should stand for you because you've made
uh you've made a very strong and defense
and one which I agree with but
nonetheless the law is the law and if
prosecutions had ensued and we'll know
in a day or two whether they will that
would have been a severe problem for it
would have been a problem but I'm not
sure I follow your logic when you say
that that would have Whitted a majority
because that's on the assumption that a
new candidate from the same party
wouldn't have simply won the seat when
actually all of the background noise
would have been whatever the courts have
decided you and I know this is a stitch
up you know and actually I suspect the
vast majority of those candidates would
have seen their successes reelected well
look if that law was an ass and I think
we're in agreement that it was what
about the fixed term Parliament act we
supposed to be locked into a fiveyear
parliament that didn't last long well
you and I know that um when I was uh
parliamentary private secretary in the
home office the then Home Secretary
introduced a piece legislation called
the dangerous dogs act I'm not going to
tell viewers a lot about the dangerous
dogs act but basically I've decided that
trying to legislate to tell a dog what
to do is a pretty pointless proposition
it's been known as one of the darest
acts the Tor government ever introduced
and alongside that I think goes the
fixed term Parliament act you know I
used to say to people forget all this
business of a two-thirds majority a
simple majority could simply abolish the
act and had Theresa May for whatever
reason found that it was NE necessary to
invoke that proposition should have
easily done so you can sweep any act off
the statute book If by a simple majority
in the House of Commons by one vote if
necessary no it was pointless it was a s
to Nick CLE during the days of the
Coalition and it's rightly been
consigned to history we don't operate
that system because if a prime minister
as you well know if a prime minister
loses the confidence of the House of
Commons he or she is bound to resign and
is bound on that basis of losing a vote
of confidence to go to the country and
to dissolve
parliament now we found a rare uh
measure of agreement uh so far let me
throw one in that we might not agree on
I think Tesa May's announcement that she
would not face the others in televised
debates might be a leite motif running
through this election frit
scared cowardly even and certainly not
Democratic hiding away from the
electorate hoping that the tide which
she imagines to be there will sweep her
in that may turn out to be a very
considerable mistake it may actually it
may because you're right about that sort
of light Motif which obviously all the
opposition parties will try to underpin
it's worth reflecting though that uh you
know Tony Blair for example never
indulged in a TV debate and the read
reason he didn't was he said I'm way in
the lead I can only lose and of course
it was Gordon Brown ironically who first
agreed uh I'm I'm least qualified to do
so your your word's not mine George but
I'm not far away from you and then of
course David Cameron who was in and not
in uh was going to do it they're not
going to do it then tried to dictate
terms then got dictated to and was all a
bit of a dog's breakfast it's pretty
typical of Theresa to say look I am far
away in the lead I have nothing to gain
and everything to lose by indulging in
this piece of Television which is not
nothing to do with the real issues in
front of the country I'm not going to do
it unfortunately I agree with you that
that gives the opportunity to the
opposition all the opposition parties to
play this frit card if you like and
where will that end up you know in all
honesty I don't know this could end up
defining any future election as one in
which you simply have to
participate if I take your point that
these are new things televised
relatively in the UK although in an age
where a day is a long time in politics
people think it's always been the case
that contenders for power
appear against each other in front of
the cameras yeah but what if the TV
companies have
the if I may put it that way to go ahead
with the debates and empty chair the
Prime Minister the leader of the
conservative party or do a Roy
hattersley and put a some some uh uh
some kind of Icon there instead that's
going to be a big problem for the Tories
well it could be but then again don't
remember don't forget that she'll have
an opportunity to put her side of the
case as well she'll say this is
irrelevant this is only done for
television it it adds nothing I will be
speaking that night in front of an
audience uh and uh if a camera would
like to come and record what I say that
is my pitch to the British people I'm
not here to Pander to some TV channel I
am talking direct to the British people
you know is that convincing enough I
don't know I'm genuinely not sure I
would have said to her do it do it for
goodness sake and what's more do it the
way they like because you're going to
win anyway it's not exactly as if our
adversaries are wonderful orators
wonderful debators yeah yeah we're
talking Jeremy Corbin Tim Fon I suppose
maybe the nationalists would squeeze in
for one or two although that might be
problematic I myself think it's quite a
significant mistake and one that will ha
her uh through the campaign we got to
take a break now but we're all lucky
that you can stay for the second half
let's tour the opposition horiz on this
is a special Westminster edition of
Sputnik orbiting the world with me
George Galloway we'll be right
back welcome back to Sputnik orbiting
the world with me George Galloway
special Westminster Edition in the wake
of the prime minister's surprising call
for a general election on June the 8th
I'm joined by Tori Grande who's never
had the garlands that he deserves but a
former Minister former Tor meel
candidate here in London and an all
around wise guy and good one uh Steve
Trea May is up against as you pointed
out an opposition at the lowest levels
predicted to get the lowest
parliamentary representation since
1935 yeah but just like Trump there is a
possibility that Jeremy Corbin might as
it were set the country a light with
expectation with possibility there's a
lot of anti-tory feeling particularly in
poor places post-industrial places uh
parts of the Kingdom which are far from
her home couny kind of uh appeal do you
disc that possibility entirely uh no you
know you talked about how you were the
only person who thought that we'd leave
the EU and and the only person who
thought we'd elect Donald Trump I won a
lot of money on the EU referendum
unfortunately I lost the lot on Trump so
don't ask me however I do remember John
Howard John Howard the Australian
Premier who uh found himself in a
position where he was way ahead in the
opinion polls his party just won a
surprisingly good byelection he decided
to go to the country and 5 Weeks Later
was ousted by a labor Administration
which actually won 75 out of 125 seats
in their low house I mean in other words
these surprises can happen so do I
discount it completely no and I think
would be foolish for anybody ever to do
so uh Jeremy Corbin has surprised many
many people already uh when he was uh
finally included in the lineup for the
labor leadership alongside such Titans
as Andy
you know never known to
CLW from the jaws of Victory Burnham or
I Cooper or whatever he surprised
everybody I suspect by winning and
winning margin 200 to one and won by a
clear margin so do I discount it no I
don't however I think what's interesting
is the way that Dynamics have changed um
Theresa May has won a grudging respect
even from people who are not natural
Tories and it's to do think with her
personal character she's uh pretty tough
uh she is not given to sound bites she
is thought of as somebody who tells it
as it is uh she's even able I suspect to
persuade people that even though she
said I'm not going to have an election
I'm not going to have election I'm not
you know and so on many times over and
then says I am she's able to persuade
people that somehow this is consistent
with the line that she's taking and
that's quite a that's quite a trick I
think the last person we saw with that
kind of ability was was of course Tony
Blair and prior to that Margaret
Thatcher neither John Major nor Gordon
Brown nor David Cameron had that ability
and so I suspect this will be more than
ever about
personalities about who do you want to
lead us in this uncertain time when we
are facing a brexit negotiation which is
either going to go very well or very
badly and it's worth therefore I think
more reflecting on the time when for
example Michael Foot Led the labor party
and you will remember this very very
well indeed and again it became a choice
between Thatcher who had just apparently
personally won the Forkland war and
Michael thought he was seen as
completely out of touch and you know far
too old from another world and from
another world but I'll tell you what
something about Corbin he's and I think
you know this he's a good and honest
person he's sincere
he has principles and the one thing he's
good at he's not that great in the House
of Commons though he's got better the
one thing he's good at is out there on
the street and that's where his election
will be fought it is possible that he
can capture the Z guys capture the
imagination against a rather straight
laced Tory leadership and Tory campaign
I I I can't disagree with that George I
think that's right I mean he uh uh he is
a he's I mean I've known him for the 30
odd years uh not as long as you but I've
I've certainly known him as a fellow
member of the House of Commons he is
clearly um a man of integrity uh he's a
man who sticks by his principles uh he's
a man who uh tells it the way he sees it
and not the way he's told to see it I I
get all that and I also get the fact
that he's good on the stump I mean he I
saw him out in cuden which is a swing
seat yesterday and he was full of fire
and vigor and I think he'll go on doing
that during the election man he's no
Michael foot in that
context it's also true that Mrs mayor is
not a great natural oror not by any
means she's more comfortable reading a
speech than she is extemporizing and I
always think that I mean you can do this
and I like think I used to be able to do
it you know to extemporize is to is to
have been seen to be speaking from the
heart so can this have a big impact yes
it could I think the problem that jemy
Corbin has however is that his
opposition is mainly from his own party
yeah yeah this full of holes his back is
full of holes this is a man who has MPS
in his own party saying we're going to
stand as a labor candidate but we would
never vote for him as a prime minister
quite unprecedented unprecedented now
the Liberals on the face of it were dead
and buried in 2015 brexit has
undoubtedly given them some more wind in
their sales how much we shall see but
they are running unequivocally as the
second referendum people try to Scupper
brexit and if we can't Scupper it make
it as moderate uh break as uh possible
48% of the people voted to remain in the
EU so that's a potential vote Bank of
some importance if people all got behind
the Liberals what do you think of that
well I remember Zack Goldsmith who for
completely separate reasons resigned and
put himself up for re-election that was
over the issue of building a third
Runway at e row but nonetheless uh it
was immediately after a Time when he had
voted to leave his father of course
famously uh founded the referendum party
and and so his views are very clear but
his constituents were overwhelmingly uh
forain and they ditched him and that was
because the libdems were able to say
well we of course our remainers and we
will stick up for you and we represent
you and who's to say what impact that
will have I have a sneaking suspicion
that um there will be a few liberal wins
against Tories in seats that they
previously held and it will be on that
basis however again you know I really do
sense that time has moved on um every
poll tells us that many people who did
vote remain are now resigned to the
Democratic vote that's my own experience
and then they're saying okay so who's
going to be best to negotiate the best
deal for us and it's not Tim faren you
know in the end you and I know it's the
one thing that unites all Tores and all
labor politicians is that the libdems
the most cynical party in British
politics yes everyone hates that we all
hate the liberal Democrats it's a it's a
famous sport in this country but it has
some Merit as well I I predict uh here
that they they'll go from eight to uh
certainly double figures maybe 30 or so
maybe 20 maybe
30 but Mrs May of course banks on the
idea that she will more than make up the
difference in areas where we as a party
the conservatives haven't necessarily
been prominent for a gener
it was significant to me that she
appeared yesterday in Bolton MH uh in
what is now a labor seat but was a Tory
seat back in the '90s and she sees us
able to win that kind of a seat now
that's quite a pitch of course Jeremy
was in uh Jeremy Corbin was in C in a
seat that is now held by a Tor but is
pretty marginal he too is looking to be
able to shift that one but I think her
view is that yes there'll be a bit of
collateral damage from the lib demems
but it'll be more than overtaken by the
seats that she wins in places where the
sense is among labor voters that we've
always been labor but we can't vote for
Jeremy Corbin as a leader now this
decent honorable man that you and I have
just
discussed faces that huge huge problem
of credibility as a leader well we'll
see uh what about uh ukip who uh are
between well I don't know if they're
between leaders I think nutal is still
the leader uh Nigel farage is clearly
the leader but he's over the water and
we don't know if he's going to run uh
again are you kept done and dusted do
you think is there historic achievement
to have got the referendum to have seen
it go their way and that many people
think there's not really that much
further point for them I think uh Mrs
Mayer shot their Fox uh although she was
a remainer technically if what maybe
somewhat reluctantly uh after the vote
and when she was elected as uh or
appointed almost as leader of the Tory
party she made that famous uh
wonderfully delic comment brexit means
brexit we could have a whole program
discussing what that means but
nonetheless it's there you know what it
did say was I'm not going to overturn
this we are going to leave and I am
going to get the best deal that I can
for the UK and everything that she said
after that is really simply making
ukip's position frankly now irrelevant
they'll of course say are well we've got
to hold their feet to the fire and so on
but a the present leader Paul nut all is
frankly incredible
H and I mean that in the sense that so
far we can't believe a word he says and
B that Nigel farage may or may not
decide to stand in thanet South a seat
that he's fought and lost in before
whether he does or not he's not going to
be as prominent or frankly have the same
case to make as he was able to make in
2015 so you Kip for me not surprising
that the increased lead that the Tories
got in recent bills all came not at the
expense of labor but actually at the
expense of finally then many people
thought initially not I but many thought
that Mrs May is going for a bigger
majority to drive through a hard brexit
I think the opposite I think she wants
to have a mandate and have enough
Hinterland around her that she can make
the deal and her instincts as a as a
remainer in fact are likely to see
Britain negotiate more of a sweetheart
deal with the EU rather than than uh the
break that the brexiteers perhaps
imagined I couldn't agree more in simple
terms I couldn't agree more you know
speaking of somebody who voted to leave
I believe that we should take back
control of our borders and our laws I
believe that we should be acting in the
interest of the British people
unequivocally I dislike unelected
bureaucracies being able to dictate to a
national to a country that still calls
itself a country but for example taking
back control of our borders is not going
to mean closing them unless we really do
want to commit economic suicide we need
migrants this country will need migrants
for the foreseeable future to deal with
the expansion in our economy we're still
the fastest growing economy in the G7
now you know Mrs May precisely as you
say is not going to get reelected in
order to push some kind of let's split
each other's lip kind of um you know
conclusion with the EU on the contrary
it's precisely to say you don't want
tariffs neither do we we want to take
back control our borders and our laws
but a we're going to keep 90% of the
laws and B we're certainly not going to
close the borders why would we do it it
would be insane and it's that Ultra
remainer Ultra lever rather excuse me
Ultra lever part of the Tory party in
Parliament that she wants to di diminish
the influence of by getting a much
bigger majority in her own name Steve
Norris it's been uh fantastic
fascinating talking to you Steve Norris
Tori Grande touring the Horizon with me
as we get the 2017 British general
election underway I hope you've enjoyed
the show it's been marvelous